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	<title>Comments on: Counterflow Wort Chiller</title>
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	<description>WARNING: This blog contains writings known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.</description>
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		<title>By: onelegout</title>
		<link>http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/homebrewing/wort_chiller/comment-page-2/#comment-151952</link>
		<dc:creator>onelegout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 16:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/?page_id=120#comment-151952</guid>
		<description>@piper - The &#039;coolant&#039; is cold water which runs from a tap, through the garden house. It isn&#039;t motionless, so I&#039;m not sure I understand what you mean?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@piper &#8211; The &#8216;coolant&#8217; is cold water which runs from a tap, through the garden house. It isn&#8217;t motionless, so I&#8217;m not sure I understand what you mean?</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/homebrewing/wort_chiller/comment-page-2/#comment-151792</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/?page_id=120#comment-151792</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t seen 1/4&quot; soft copper in my neck of the woods, but yes it would be easier.  Using a similar design, the only difficult part was the Cu tube insertion, more specifically the last 5 feet of it.  Turns out the not so smooth Cu end was peeling a thin layer off the inside of the garden hose.  Great arm workout, that was.  However, the finished piece was very functional, cooling 5 gal 95 deg C wort to 18 deg C in about 15 minutes, using 10 deg C input coolant (didn&#039;t measure flow rate).  
Starting one of these without a pump or ball valve on one&#039;s kettle is tricky.  I ended up priming the sanitized chiller with hot water, clipping closed the outlet to the fermenter and then putting my copper racking cane attached to the chiller into the wort.  Unclip at the fermenter gave enough suction to start what turned out to be an efficient siphon.  Sucking on the outlet hose just ain&#039;t enough!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t seen 1/4&#8243; soft copper in my neck of the woods, but yes it would be easier.  Using a similar design, the only difficult part was the Cu tube insertion, more specifically the last 5 feet of it.  Turns out the not so smooth Cu end was peeling a thin layer off the inside of the garden hose.  Great arm workout, that was.  However, the finished piece was very functional, cooling 5 gal 95 deg C wort to 18 deg C in about 15 minutes, using 10 deg C input coolant (didn&#8217;t measure flow rate).<br />
Starting one of these without a pump or ball valve on one&#8217;s kettle is tricky.  I ended up priming the sanitized chiller with hot water, clipping closed the outlet to the fermenter and then putting my copper racking cane attached to the chiller into the wort.  Unclip at the fermenter gave enough suction to start what turned out to be an efficient siphon.  Sucking on the outlet hose just ain&#8217;t enough!</p>
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		<title>By: Ashley</title>
		<link>http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/homebrewing/wort_chiller/comment-page-2/#comment-151755</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 21:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/?page_id=120#comment-151755</guid>
		<description>Wow, three year old blog and still getting attention. Very nice.

Love the design, and wondering if anyone followed Luke A&#039;s design change of using a 1/4&quot; inner tube? If it&#039;s sufficient, it should be a lot easier to get through the garden hose!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, three year old blog and still getting attention. Very nice.</p>
<p>Love the design, and wondering if anyone followed Luke A&#8217;s design change of using a 1/4&#8243; inner tube? If it&#8217;s sufficient, it should be a lot easier to get through the garden hose!</p>
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		<title>By: piper</title>
		<link>http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/homebrewing/wort_chiller/comment-page-2/#comment-147507</link>
		<dc:creator>piper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 02:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/?page_id=120#comment-147507</guid>
		<description>Oh, it matters.  The key concept in a counterflow chiller is counterflow... meaning the flows are in opposite directions.

The rate of heat transfer from the wort to the coolant is proportional to the temperature difference between them.  If the there is no temperature difference between coolant and wort, then there will be no heat transfer.

Suppose that the wort and coolant are flowing in the same direction.  There will be a great deal of heat transfer at first because the wort would be very hot and the coolant very cool.  But after traveling along together for a short while, they would reach an equilibrium, wort and coolant at the same temperature... the average temperature.  No matter how long the chiller was, you&#039;d never get the wort any cooler, or the coolant any hotter.  They would emerge together at the far end both luke-warm.

Conversely, suppose they&#039;re flowing in opposite directions.  In that case, the coolant near the end of its travel is encountering incoming wort at very high temperature.  And the wort at the end of its travel is encountering incoming coolant at very low temperature.  So, even at the ends of the chiller, there is still going to be some heat transfer going on.  As the length of the chiller approaches infinity, the heat exchange asymptotically approaches 100%.  At infinity, the wort temperature out exactly equals the coolant temperature in, and vice versa.

In practice, you can get very close to 100% heat exchange with a practical chiller length.  I get wort coming out that is cold, and coolant coming out steaming hot.  I get one hell of a cold-break too.  My chiller is, I think, rather longer than it needs to be, which costs me in flow-rate.  It takes a fairly long time to drain my kettle into the fermenter.

But it does need to be counterflow, or the whole thing is shot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, it matters.  The key concept in a counterflow chiller is counterflow&#8230; meaning the flows are in opposite directions.</p>
<p>The rate of heat transfer from the wort to the coolant is proportional to the temperature difference between them.  If the there is no temperature difference between coolant and wort, then there will be no heat transfer.</p>
<p>Suppose that the wort and coolant are flowing in the same direction.  There will be a great deal of heat transfer at first because the wort would be very hot and the coolant very cool.  But after traveling along together for a short while, they would reach an equilibrium, wort and coolant at the same temperature&#8230; the average temperature.  No matter how long the chiller was, you&#8217;d never get the wort any cooler, or the coolant any hotter.  They would emerge together at the far end both luke-warm.</p>
<p>Conversely, suppose they&#8217;re flowing in opposite directions.  In that case, the coolant near the end of its travel is encountering incoming wort at very high temperature.  And the wort at the end of its travel is encountering incoming coolant at very low temperature.  So, even at the ends of the chiller, there is still going to be some heat transfer going on.  As the length of the chiller approaches infinity, the heat exchange asymptotically approaches 100%.  At infinity, the wort temperature out exactly equals the coolant temperature in, and vice versa.</p>
<p>In practice, you can get very close to 100% heat exchange with a practical chiller length.  I get wort coming out that is cold, and coolant coming out steaming hot.  I get one hell of a cold-break too.  My chiller is, I think, rather longer than it needs to be, which costs me in flow-rate.  It takes a fairly long time to drain my kettle into the fermenter.</p>
<p>But it does need to be counterflow, or the whole thing is shot.</p>
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		<title>By: sparky</title>
		<link>http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/homebrewing/wort_chiller/comment-page-2/#comment-147471</link>
		<dc:creator>sparky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/?page_id=120#comment-147471</guid>
		<description>Does it matter which way the cooling water enters. Going to build one today and try it out this weekend. Just not sure if the cold water should go into the end where the wort comes out or where it goes in?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does it matter which way the cooling water enters. Going to build one today and try it out this weekend. Just not sure if the cold water should go into the end where the wort comes out or where it goes in?</p>
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		<title>By: LesS</title>
		<link>http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/homebrewing/wort_chiller/comment-page-2/#comment-138849</link>
		<dc:creator>LesS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 22:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/?page_id=120#comment-138849</guid>
		<description>Thought i&#039;d better explain my reasonings better, I’m thinking of applying some of these principles into my design, ie a radiater/fan, reservoir and pump, albeit on a slightly larger scale, In Australia we have water restrictions so the above would cool and recycle the water (or so my thoughts go)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thought i&#8217;d better explain my reasonings better, I’m thinking of applying some of these principles into my design, ie a radiater/fan, reservoir and pump, albeit on a slightly larger scale, In Australia we have water restrictions so the above would cool and recycle the water (or so my thoughts go)</p>
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		<title>By: LesS</title>
		<link>http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/homebrewing/wort_chiller/comment-page-2/#comment-138848</link>
		<dc:creator>LesS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 22:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/?page_id=120#comment-138848</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the awesome plans, I&#039;m shortly about to build my own. This topic brings to mind the similar principles in water cooling a PC when over-clocking. I&#039;m thinking of applying some of these principles into my design, ie a radiater/fan, reservoir and pump, albeit on a slightly larger scale. Water turbulance appears to be a key factor in good pc water cooling sytems and I see no reason why turbulence in this application wouldn&#039;t be the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the awesome plans, I&#8217;m shortly about to build my own. This topic brings to mind the similar principles in water cooling a PC when over-clocking. I&#8217;m thinking of applying some of these principles into my design, ie a radiater/fan, reservoir and pump, albeit on a slightly larger scale. Water turbulance appears to be a key factor in good pc water cooling sytems and I see no reason why turbulence in this application wouldn&#8217;t be the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott F.</title>
		<link>http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/homebrewing/wort_chiller/comment-page-2/#comment-132990</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 16:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/?page_id=120#comment-132990</guid>
		<description>I finally used mine yesterday. It worked great.  I could get a little over 1 gpm flow through the 20 ft chiller, about 7 feet of hose, and my tube areator.  I could throttle my 50 psi water flow down and still maintain the wort outlet between 65-75F with 59F inlet water temp.  I have to refine my technique to reuse the hot outlet water to refill my hot liquor tank (HLT).  I tried on my second batch, but I had the wort throttle down to about 0.5 gpm and the water flow pretty high - that put about 80F water in my HLT.  I had to throttle the wort flow because the high flow makes my areating tube go crazy and my bucket was overflowing with foam by 2.5-3 gallons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I finally used mine yesterday. It worked great.  I could get a little over 1 gpm flow through the 20 ft chiller, about 7 feet of hose, and my tube areator.  I could throttle my 50 psi water flow down and still maintain the wort outlet between 65-75F with 59F inlet water temp.  I have to refine my technique to reuse the hot outlet water to refill my hot liquor tank (HLT).  I tried on my second batch, but I had the wort throttle down to about 0.5 gpm and the water flow pretty high &#8211; that put about 80F water in my HLT.  I had to throttle the wort flow because the high flow makes my areating tube go crazy and my bucket was overflowing with foam by 2.5-3 gallons.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott F.</title>
		<link>http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/homebrewing/wort_chiller/comment-page-2/#comment-132648</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/?page_id=120#comment-132648</guid>
		<description>I just built one of these yesterday and wanted to add a few comments.  I used a 20 ft roll of copper tube, used 14 ga copper wire from scraps from building my workshop, and a 25 ft potable-water hose.  Each piece of copper wire was 3-4 feet long and I reversed the wind direction, clockwise to counterclockwise, with each piece to further increase turbulence.  I also used drilled out compression fittings to seal where the copper tube exits the chiller.  I used lead-free solder since I intend to reclaim the hot outlet water to fill my hot liquor tank for either the next batch (I usually do two in a row) or for cleaning.  I plan on testing it in service tomorrow.  I will note that my dad and I had a heck of a time getting the hose over the copper - it eventually required using a fish tape and about quart of dish soap.  I don&#039;t know how anyone got 30+ feet assembled with the spiral over the tube.

Now for the tech talk.  Despite the comments above, I will admit to being a mechanical engineer (witha masters degree and professional egineering license) and a government worker.  Scientists always complain about engineer&#039;s assumptions, but without them no practical device gets built.  I went through the counter flow heat exchanger calculations using the NTU method (number of transfer units) and found the calculation is quite sensitive to the assumptions (a factor of four or more).  The flow inside and outside the tube is borderline turbulent (no wire, smooth concentric tubes assumed), depending on the assumed flowrates.  I used 1 gpm on the hot side and 2.5 on the cold.  Additionally, the Reynolds number is also considerably effected by the temperature which changes significantly along the tubes and fully turbulent can&#039;t be assumed unless Re &gt; 4000.  I can&#039;t calculate the effect of the wire, but in all areas (turbulence, fin, keeping tubes centered) it is in the direction of goodness, though I do think it makes inserting it into the hose more difficult.   

I suspect 1 gpm is too high for a gravity system (I have a pump); kettle-to-carboy is not more than a few feet of hieght drop and 20+ feet of 1/4&quot; ID tubing has a significant frictional effect that  cannot be ignored.  A decent thumbrule (for cold water) would be about 0.2-0.7 psi pressure loss per foot when flowing at 1 gpm in 1/4 ID line (depending on material and smoothness).  Using the low end of the range and 20 ft of tubing would require 4 psi, which would require over 9 feet to get 1 gpm. 

Anyway, engineering calculations regarding fluid flow and heat transfer are usually crude and must be validated with empirical data.

Also, regarding Mike&#039;s question above: Yes it will work, however. . .

You will hve to melt almost a pound of ice for each pound of wort (about 8 lbs per gallon) to keep the ice bath at 32F.  You might be able to use a little less if you let the water bath (melted ice) increase in temperature at the end.  Tube length could be almost any length you want depending on how fast the flow is  (faster flow, longer tube) and how much you stir the ice bath.  A CFC will use 2-3 times more water, but no electricity is wasted freezing the ice.  

I&#039;d considered putting a small &quot;immersion&quot; chiller (in a bucket full of ice) in line with my CFC water inlet to drop the temperature to improve cooling.  However, that adds complexity to my setp and the same cooling effect could be achieved by reducing the flowrate of the wort (my inlet water never gets above 60F).  

As a side note, I had been using an immersion chiller which worked pretty well, but decided to go with a CFC to save the 25-45 minutes of chill time (10-12 gal) since chilling and racking will now be simultanious.  With the IC, I found a great improvement by doing a few things: 1) make sure the coils are at the top of the wort level, 2) mist/spray water on the outside of the kettle, and 3) stir the wort occasionally using the immersion coils.  I intend to continue to spray down the kettle when I use my CFC.

Scott</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just built one of these yesterday and wanted to add a few comments.  I used a 20 ft roll of copper tube, used 14 ga copper wire from scraps from building my workshop, and a 25 ft potable-water hose.  Each piece of copper wire was 3-4 feet long and I reversed the wind direction, clockwise to counterclockwise, with each piece to further increase turbulence.  I also used drilled out compression fittings to seal where the copper tube exits the chiller.  I used lead-free solder since I intend to reclaim the hot outlet water to fill my hot liquor tank for either the next batch (I usually do two in a row) or for cleaning.  I plan on testing it in service tomorrow.  I will note that my dad and I had a heck of a time getting the hose over the copper &#8211; it eventually required using a fish tape and about quart of dish soap.  I don&#8217;t know how anyone got 30+ feet assembled with the spiral over the tube.</p>
<p>Now for the tech talk.  Despite the comments above, I will admit to being a mechanical engineer (witha masters degree and professional egineering license) and a government worker.  Scientists always complain about engineer&#8217;s assumptions, but without them no practical device gets built.  I went through the counter flow heat exchanger calculations using the NTU method (number of transfer units) and found the calculation is quite sensitive to the assumptions (a factor of four or more).  The flow inside and outside the tube is borderline turbulent (no wire, smooth concentric tubes assumed), depending on the assumed flowrates.  I used 1 gpm on the hot side and 2.5 on the cold.  Additionally, the Reynolds number is also considerably effected by the temperature which changes significantly along the tubes and fully turbulent can&#8217;t be assumed unless Re &gt; 4000.  I can&#8217;t calculate the effect of the wire, but in all areas (turbulence, fin, keeping tubes centered) it is in the direction of goodness, though I do think it makes inserting it into the hose more difficult.   </p>
<p>I suspect 1 gpm is too high for a gravity system (I have a pump); kettle-to-carboy is not more than a few feet of hieght drop and 20+ feet of 1/4&#8243; ID tubing has a significant frictional effect that  cannot be ignored.  A decent thumbrule (for cold water) would be about 0.2-0.7 psi pressure loss per foot when flowing at 1 gpm in 1/4 ID line (depending on material and smoothness).  Using the low end of the range and 20 ft of tubing would require 4 psi, which would require over 9 feet to get 1 gpm. </p>
<p>Anyway, engineering calculations regarding fluid flow and heat transfer are usually crude and must be validated with empirical data.</p>
<p>Also, regarding Mike&#8217;s question above: Yes it will work, however. . .</p>
<p>You will hve to melt almost a pound of ice for each pound of wort (about 8 lbs per gallon) to keep the ice bath at 32F.  You might be able to use a little less if you let the water bath (melted ice) increase in temperature at the end.  Tube length could be almost any length you want depending on how fast the flow is  (faster flow, longer tube) and how much you stir the ice bath.  A CFC will use 2-3 times more water, but no electricity is wasted freezing the ice.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;d considered putting a small &#8220;immersion&#8221; chiller (in a bucket full of ice) in line with my CFC water inlet to drop the temperature to improve cooling.  However, that adds complexity to my setp and the same cooling effect could be achieved by reducing the flowrate of the wort (my inlet water never gets above 60F).  </p>
<p>As a side note, I had been using an immersion chiller which worked pretty well, but decided to go with a CFC to save the 25-45 minutes of chill time (10-12 gal) since chilling and racking will now be simultanious.  With the IC, I found a great improvement by doing a few things: 1) make sure the coils are at the top of the wort level, 2) mist/spray water on the outside of the kettle, and 3) stir the wort occasionally using the immersion coils.  I intend to continue to spray down the kettle when I use my CFC.</p>
<p>Scott</p>
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		<title>By: piper</title>
		<link>http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/homebrewing/wort_chiller/comment-page-2/#comment-132601</link>
		<dc:creator>piper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 02:40:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thegatesofdawn.ca/wordpress/?page_id=120#comment-132601</guid>
		<description>From my perspective, the copper wire winding was all about inducing turbulence in the coolant, so that cold coolant is continually brought in contact with the tubing, no dead pockets.

But in your case, unless you take steps, the coolant will be motionless.  The coolant in close proximity to the copper tubing will quickly warm up to the hot wort temperature, and then heat transfer will stop.  The rate of heat transfer is proportional to the temperature difference.  As the coolant temperature outside the tubing approaches the wort temperature inside the tubing, the rate of heat transfer approaches zero.

If the coolant is motionless, then the copper windings will not help induce turbulence.  I would suggest that you should get the coolant moving yourself.  You could use a pump to circulate the coolant, drawing from the bottom of the bucket, and returning to the top.  Since it&#039;s only coolant, not beer, the pump can be any cheapo Home Depot pump, it doesn&#039;t have to be food-grade or magnetically-coupled or anything fancy.

Alternatively, you could put some kind of impeller in the bucket to keep things moving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From my perspective, the copper wire winding was all about inducing turbulence in the coolant, so that cold coolant is continually brought in contact with the tubing, no dead pockets.</p>
<p>But in your case, unless you take steps, the coolant will be motionless.  The coolant in close proximity to the copper tubing will quickly warm up to the hot wort temperature, and then heat transfer will stop.  The rate of heat transfer is proportional to the temperature difference.  As the coolant temperature outside the tubing approaches the wort temperature inside the tubing, the rate of heat transfer approaches zero.</p>
<p>If the coolant is motionless, then the copper windings will not help induce turbulence.  I would suggest that you should get the coolant moving yourself.  You could use a pump to circulate the coolant, drawing from the bottom of the bucket, and returning to the top.  Since it&#8217;s only coolant, not beer, the pump can be any cheapo Home Depot pump, it doesn&#8217;t have to be food-grade or magnetically-coupled or anything fancy.</p>
<p>Alternatively, you could put some kind of impeller in the bucket to keep things moving.</p>
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